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Poker Hand Of The Week -- 9/14/12

You Decide What's The Best Play

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Give us your opinion in the comments section below for your chance at winning a six-month Card Player magazine digital subscription.

Ask any group of poker players how you played your hand and they’ll come up with dozens of different opinions. That’s just the nature of the game.

Each week, Card Player will select a hand from the high-stakes, big buy-in poker world, break it down and show that there’s more than one way to get the job done.

The Scenario

You are sitting on a massive stack of 170 big blinds during the first day of a multi-day tournament. You are dealt AClub Suit 8Club Suit and decide to raise it up from under the gun to 3,000 with blinds at 600-1,200 with a 200 ante.

A creative, yet aggressive player calls in the cutoff, as does the button and the small blind. The big blind, a solid player, decides to move all in on the short stack for his last 11,400.

With only 8,400 more to call and an additional 9,000 in potentially dead money on the table, you decide to isolate by raising to 20,000. Your plan backfires when the cutoff moves all in for his last 54,700.

The button and the small blind get out of the way and the action is back on you.

The Questions

Do you call or fold? What kind of hands could your opponent in the cutoff be holding? Do you place more of an importance with the math of the situation, or the value of your chips during this stage of the tournament? How often do you need to win this showdown to break even on a call? How could the additional 34,700 be better used later on in the tournament?

What Actually Happened

Peter JettenDuring day 1 of the WPT Grand Prix de Paris main event, Peter Jetten raised to 3,000 from under the gun and was called by Dominik Nitsche in the cutoff, Philipp Gruissem on the button and Salmn Behbehani in the small blind.

Marvin Rettenmaier then moved all in from the big blind for his last 11,400. Jetten tried to isolate by raising to 20,000, but Nitsche moved all in over the top for 54,700. Gruissem and Behbehani folded and Jetten felt priced in enough to make the call with his AClub Suit 8Club Suit.

Rettenmaier held KHeart Suit 9Spade Suit and Nitsche was way ahead with his JClub Suit JHeart Suit. The board ran out 10Diamond Suit 8Diamond Suit 6Heart Suit 9Heart Suit 4Heart Suit and Nitsche more than doubled up. Rettenmaier was eliminated and Jetten was left with 150,000.

Though both players survived the day, neither were able to make the money, busting just a few spots before the bubble.

What would you have done and why? Let us know in the comments section below and try not to be results oriented. The best answer will receive a six-month Card Player magazine digital subscription.

 
 
 
 

Comments

Tahosa65
over 8 years ago

Simple really, at least for me. First of all I would not raise with A-8 whether suited or not even from position. I might limp and/or call a small raise, but then if there is a reraise or if I miss the flop totally, I can lay the hand down with little effect. Say I had come in as described, once there was an all in bet, even if the math said call, I would probably fold. Too many other players left to act and the likelihood of a squeeze play or another all in is too great.

 
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YeeDoggy
over 8 years ago

Exactly my thinking as well. See a flop for as little as possible, if I can't, no worries, hold out for a better starting hand.

 
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Blake2
over 8 years ago

Well i would fold after some consideration. The reason being, the Cutoff Called/raised which is usually a sign of strength. If i raised got raised and re-raised and the Cutoff raises me all in, i think i am beat here most the time. I would put him on 77+,A10+. So most of the time he is going to have us. I think we are getting 2/1 on a call but i think that 90%+ of his range will have us crushed. If he does have 88+ then we are a 5-1 underdog, and if he has a lower pair then its pretty much a flip. I would prefer to focus more on postflop in a tournament rather then get it in with a marginal hand because of some pot odds.

 
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Corey1
over 8 years ago

Great hand of the week! In this spot I'd elect to fold, ive opened UTG which represents a large holding and even if our opponent thought we were just bullying with our stack we've 4bet into 3 opponent still to act in the hand and he still jams a pretty healthy stack which he knows is giving a tempting price for Jetten, all these suggest a v strong holding and I'm going to assume he's holding the top of his range, QQ-AA with the flat in position of me with my large stack and LAG style. I'm surprised to read villian had JJ!

I'm going to fold here as 34700 is nearly 30BB's and alot to call off in a marginal situation. I rely on pot odds more in a cash game where results even out long term, I can reload for another buy in and pot odds etc can be relied upon more often than a tournament where when you're out you're out. But that's just me :)

 
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Juan3
over 8 years ago

Before we can answer this we need to consider a few things. What is our image??? Yes we are big stack relative to opponents and our opening range from utg therefore might be wider than normal (whatever normal is for "me"), but the cutoff is willing to risk his tournament life on a 45bb all in raise against an utg open 3-bet. Sure he might be iso'ing as well but his iso range in this spot is most likely crushing us. Any ace is crushing us and any likely pairs are 88+. Our initial iso attempt for what looks like a min reraise leaves us enough room to fold to such a bet. Calling off 34k into 94k pot is not even giving us the right odds. It is likely we are drawing to only 3 outs (if we're lucky). U need to fold and use those additional 28 bigs in other better spots. Calling here imo is called SPEWING! To answer the other questions posed, I think you need to win about a little more than half the time to break even here. Those chips ur saving are more valuable than the pure gamble of drawing thin and winning. Minimize marginal spots and you minimize variance. Also, you have essentially balanced your utg opening range now that you've folded. Use this to your advantage in future hands.

 
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Juan3
over 8 years ago

Sorry meant open 4-bet

 
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Brett2
over 8 years ago

I would fold to the shove. But because we are greedy I re raise to 30k instead of 20k so the Cutoff has no fold equity to our raise. (Puts a lot more.pressure on him )Also our move depends on button and sb tendencies. But imo no use raising 20k but instead 30k when we are calling off here.

 
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dolarnick
over 8 years ago

There would be only one reason to raise UTG with Ace-8 Suited (which is equal to 77) and that would be to see a cheap flop for your 3000 in chips and hit the 120-1 shot flush. If you can see the flop and then fold, or hit AA8 or 88A or 888, fine. you will win the post flop bet more than once. However, once the initial raise comes in, you should give up on the hand, as they have to have, at least, 88+; with calling players behind you, and not having the final say so post flop, it is a clear fold. Honestly, raising utg with the suited ace only leaves you with the above-mentioned choice

Daniel Olarnick
DOlarnick@aol.com

 
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GTOmark
over 8 years ago

My gut feel after reading the play was that you had a clear fold. However, after armchairing his pot odds ~2.8 -1, and given that villain might be a level 3 thinker, I'm not so sure. Even if villains range is AQo+, your equity is 30%, more than the 26.3% required to call, but still close to borderline. Under real time conditions, in a marginal situation like this, I disagree with earlier writers, I think you add variance in a Large field MTT, if your in it to win it. BTW, I think these articles are the best part of Cardplayer Magazine, and some pro should write a book using this format.

 
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carpentf
over 8 years ago

I like the open raise - why not put pressure on the smaller stacks.
I like the isolation play.
Calling the all-in: the range of hands I would expect to be up against would include 1) a small pair, 2) KQ or KJ, or 3) a decent ace.
I'm happy to go against a small pair or KQ/KJ, and I'm getting decent odds against a big ace - I like the call.
K9 is a goofy hand to push with in that spot - you're getting called by a better hand every time. I would have pushed my jacks harder and earlier to discouraged a big multiway pot.

 
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wiredtrips4me
over 8 years ago

Easy call. Take the odds and ride the rollercoaster. WHEEEEEEEEEEEE.....

 
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Adrian1
over 8 years ago

I would rather fold but table dynamics is important here because maybe you can weasel your way into the pot with a limp..if thats not possible my second option is to try to build a multi way pot with a min raise under the gun, people generally are very weary of a monster and will just flat call for fear of a re raise,also you price people in for long shots and you might just get lucky and price someone in with a couple of clubs.If the flop comes down with the draw u can pot bet it this now looks like either aces scared of drawing hands or a drawing hand trying to squeeze..either way im happy to get it all in.i think with the min raise there u can claim bigger hands than what you have or you can get away cheaper.Im also flat calling the original all in because why isolate with a hand that is nearly always behind,you want more people in the pot incase you hit the nut flush and not to mention you can get away alot cheaper. you either lose 11400 20000 or 54700..10 blinds is more than enough to risk on a8 nearly 20 blinds tryin to steal is stupid and nearly 40 blinds is ridiculous! just sit prety and pick away at small pots.
That is all.

 
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mchez1
over 8 years ago

Being in this incredible spot in an MTT I would definitely be bullying the table if they are letting me. Without knowing previous hand history I would come in with a raise to somewhere near 2850 with slightly varying amounts. If I get flatted and then shoved on like in this example I would trust my pre-flop read on the player who flatted. While fundamentals is important, table image and reading abilities obviously play a huge role in live MTT's. All things being equal without very much information I would walk from this spot since I will not be closing the action. Even if I thought that the shover was making a play I still have to worry about the flatter. I would not just call here with the fear of potentially being put to a decision by the flatter and now having to either play a pot oop or calling another preflop raise. Isolating is a bad play here because u would only be picking up 3k of dead money plus. In this spot there is always the fear of being up against 99 and AJ and basically drawing dead. This is a fold to the shove.

 
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debtman
over 8 years ago

Everyone seems to want to make this more complicated than it really is. the man with the A-8 of clubs was under the gun. Sure his chip stack was large but under the gun with A rag even suited is an easy muck. Any ACE caller beats your ace. any pair beats your ace. this is a situation that calls for the analysis that to win he must hit the flop. this is not A-K where there is the possibility that he could win outright with the right combination falling. He must hit to win. He must also assume that the short stack with any two decent cards is going to go all in. that means that anyone at the table with decent cards and a good size stack must call him. What happened is that he trapped himself.Everyone called his $3000 before the button went all in. he completely failed to take into consideration what those others might have and what their ranges were.

 
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NoFear
over 8 years ago

My title to this hand is "Don't Compound Your Mistakes"!
Jetten made quite a few mistakes on this hand. As the famous T.J. Cloutier once told me, A8 suited is still only A8! A suited ace is the type of hand where you want to see a cheap flop with a lot of players, and if you hit the right flop, i.e. all clubs or 88, you can trap somebody with a smaller flush or with your ace kicker (when 88 flops and someone holds 89). So Jetten's first mistake was raising under the gun with the hand. He's out of position and should fold unless his table is playing weak loose in which case he could limp in. His second mistake was to compound his first mistake, a common theme in poker. Now, let's assume he had a good read that the big blind shoved weak. If he is going to reraise, then call a behind him shove, why not reraise more and put the pressure on the shorter stacks? Since he reraised light, he's got to fold to a shove (and remember to reraise light with AA in a similar spot if it ever comes up with any of these same players). Personally, to answer the question as posed, I would fold to the shove as the shove there showed a lot of strength. Jetten's final mistake was calling this shove.

 
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GhostFaceKillahRabbit
over 8 years ago

If you have to fold here, you should have fookin thought about that before you put in the 20k.... you can only put in the 20k in the first place if you're willing to call the shove... once you've put in the 20 wrong, folding actually compounds the mistake worse than calling. Its not great either way tho.

 
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