DOYLEISM OF THE DAY: “The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes.”

Doyle,

The bums who try to run everyone down on here can be amusing at times but often they cross the line. I like others, have read your books and blogs, watched you on TV and have gotten to know you and your personality. You just have always been who you are. One of the greatest poker players who have ever lived, a kind and entertaining man who has a sharp wit and a warm soul. You took poker out of the dark ages and we stand on your shoulders. Thank you Doyle and don't give this POS the soapbox he wants to stand on.

Lee and the other scumbags can rot. I hate how they are allowed to spew hate on every post here on cardplayer. They take away from the great experience of this online magazine and violate the rules of the site. You guys don't need to be catered to, but you shouldn't be openly disrespected like this and it be allowed to continue. Lee you are the scum of the earth. Stop picking on old men and grow the F up.

You laud the head of a criminal drug cartel and endorse torture. Could it be that you're brain-addled?

He probably has no family, as he would have to get laid first. He is probably an alcoholic as well, a sober man wouldn't post such nonsense. Doyle, take down another bracelet. Gl sir.

Jark09 - Why do you think American lives are more important than other human lives?

-----------------------

Only an American can answer that question. Rag heads and Liberals, to name two sub-species, can't.

Read Doyle's second to last paragraph before you start hurling labels around about people.

Yeah, I know, some of you are so challenged by critical reasoning that it may be impossible for you.

JaxFull, your post is jingoistic nonsense, but that is unsurprising since you are a member of the "howler monkey" troup.

As for torture, which I am ordinarily opposed to, even Alan Dershowitz says that in certain circumstances it should be permissible.

A Supreme Court justice once famously said: "The Constitution is not a suicide pact."

texasroadgambler: JaxFull, your post is jingoistic nonsense, but that is unsurprising since you are a member of the "howler monkey" troup.

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Nothing like a little ad hominem to go with morning coffee. BTW, it's "troupe."

To LeeTheStrikerChagra:

Yes, your awesome command of rhetoric and grammar certifies that your post was, indeed, written by a football all-something, somewhere.

High five, chest bump!

Very Well said Doyle. I have never met you, but I have spent some very good time with your son last April on a cruise ship. Both of you are just fine by me. Everything you say is honest and from the heart. Im a big boy I can handle it if someone has a different opinion than me. That is our right as citizens of this great country. If you need any help in that dark alley if it is only just to hold your hat and jacket as im sure you can take very good care of your self. let me know. Best of luck to you and Todd at the WSOP

Great blog as usual. I find your comments honest and real. I think that's why I enjoy your posts. Never met you, but my range for you is great American to really great American. Good luck at the WSOP.

I generally have a lot of respect for Doyle. I've met him in person and he's a great guy, and I've met his daughter Pam and she's just an incredibly sweet, good-hearted person. Despite all of that, Doyle lost a ton of respect from me by saying, "I almost guarantee he is an atheist," insinuating that would be a bad thing, or that all atheists are bad.

A few points to be made here:

1) Look at it from another perspective. Would it have been OK if he'd said, "I almost guarantee he is a Muslim," "... Catholic," "... Mormon," etc.? Religious people like to say, "Hey, don't offend me, and don't make fun of my religion!" out of one side of their mouths and from the other they say, "Atheists are evil people with no morals and no redeeming values."

To me, religion is as fair of game as politics or philosophy, and I'd applaud Mr. Brunson for exercising his right to free speech if I honestly thought that he'd be OK with people attacking him for his narrow-minded religious values. It's not the knocks on atheists that I dislike, it's the hypocrisy.

2) You're essentially saying that atheists have no morals and are bad people. Funny that Bill Gates has one of the biggest charities in the world. Also take a look at Warren Buffett. On the other hand, do you really want me to list off all of the absolutely horrible, evil Christians out there? We could make lists of the good and bad Christians/atheists until our fingers hurt. Individual examples can be found supporting either case. What you believe doesn't matter, who you are matters. Christianity doesn't affect that -- and that's a good thing, because if it did, all Christians would be super evil. Stoning adulterers, gays, people who deny God, people who work on the Sabbath? Or how about telling someone to kill his own son? Or ruining someone's life for a bet with the devil? Or killing off an entire planet full of living beings because you want a mulligan? (Even though you shouldn't have needed one, because you're omnipotent and omniscient?) No thanks, I'll get my values the secular way -- by respecting other people, loving life, and wanting to cause as little suffering as possible and promote as much happiness as I can.

3) Like I said, Doyle, I respect you as a person. Live through example if you want to promote Christianity just as I do with atheism. You're free to mudsling if you like, but it doesn't help your case against atheism OR against LeeTheStrikerChagra, it simply makes you look childish. Don't stoop to his level -- level him with an intelligent rebuttal that puts him in his place and sets an example.

I look forward to reading your future blogs, but I hope you take my point.

Cmon Doyle...This moron is not even a speck on your map.

He uses a dead man's name because he is too much of a coward to sign his name along with his thoughts.

He doesnt really believe anything he writes...He is a "small business owner" which is short for "unemployed and sitting on the computer all day". He has to come to CardPlayer and try to talk bad about successful people because he will never be successful.

I know you are getting more adept with the digital age Doyle...so you just gotta take these failures for what they are. Dejected men who sit on a computer all day and have nothing else. They are a dime a dozen.

You cant have a battle of wits with those who are unarmed.

I Googled. Both Gates and Buffet appear to be agnostics, not atheists. Buffet even wrote "agnostic" on a postcard when he was asked if he believed in God.

Hi Doyle,

I strugle to pay my rent.
I make about $70/day.
I work for older people.
I help them with shower, bathroom,
shave them, feed them, dress them, clean after them, walk with them and so on. I have no health insurance, no benefits.
I like helping them and somebody have to do it, right ?

I wish I could make more money.
Obviously society does not appreciate those kind of jobs.

I commented in your previous post that you do not know what real life is all about.
It seems like I was right.

Doyle, you should not make fun of working people struggling to pay rent.
Doyle, as a Christian you should know better than that.

Johnny, I am a poker player and a Christian. I agree with your post with the exception of why the post. You just lectured a man ( sometimes wise but very human ) that has emotions and was just sick and tired of the blathering of some posters sorted and continuing attacks upon his friends and fellow bloggers. Did Doyle make some auumptions? Yes, but Lee the Striker is only trolling here to create confrontation. Your post was not about Lee and or Doyle getting at each other due to bad blood, but about moralizing and trying your best to rationalize your atheism to others. Christianity is not about people becoming some sort of god like moral creatures, but of becoming aware of our sin ( define sin ) nature. Doyle actually lives the life better than most would. He as Christ did, hangs out with the so called dregs of society, befriends most, helps in their time of needs etc. More than most of us can boast. I look at Doyle and see a man that is us. A real man that gets upset, that has failures, but never gives up on his fellow human beings. He sees the good in all, until you and it will have to be more than once show him otherwise. I see the good in all, but if some man decides to enter my house univited and threatens my family...I will for that moment, not be a Christian and turn the other cheek...he will be a dead man. That my friends is the Texas way and used to be the American way.

Now hey. Many a people struggling with rent is what made them atheists.

ATHEISM:

I don't believe there are many true atheists, with the exception of sociopaths and psychopaths.

I think that there are quite a few people so angry that Christianity has been seized by men promoting their own agenda and using Christianity to do so, that in an overreaction they declare that they do not believe in a God.

Neither do I believe that there are many true agnostics, perhaps for different reasons.

Think about how empty life would be without recognizing the spirituallity that surrounds us all.

Legends of the Game

[x] Doyle Brunson

[ ] LeeTheStrikerChagra

[ ] bmpek

Anonymous Douchebags

[ ] Doyle Brunson

[x] LeeTheStrikerChagra

[x] bmpek

Doyle...
As usual I agree with everything you said...but why elevate the douchebag Striker by getting on his (low) level? You are Babe Ruth...you don't have to mix it up with some loser from little league.... People like Lee the Striker, and El Pokero and Texasturdgobler like to be insulting and contrary just for the fun of it. Haven't you read texasturdgobler's posts....he fancies himself to be Shakesspeare!!! And as far as your politics goes, you and me and the rest of the majority will be vindicated this fall, after the g-damm liberals are thrown out on their ear. You know until them they will insult, call us racists, etc...throw hissy fits...just like a demon before it is cast out. It knows it is going to be cast out, so it screams and goes thru all kinds of drama....but it will still get cast out. This November we can basically shut the liberals up but good. Maybe Leethe Striker, ElPokero and Texasturdgobler can join Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi for lunch the day after the election....and they can talk about the good ole days of ruining our country before the American people woke up and threw them out on their ear..

LOL, the Chicago catholic league is a joke, everyone who makes the team gets all-conference accolades because they don't want anyone to feel bad, and they let ladies play too, which is why you were given the chance Leethestriker

@JaxFull, I suppose that depends upon how you define atheism and agnosticism. Atheists don't believe in god, agnostics think that the answer isn't known yet or is ultimately unknowable. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I myself am an agnostic atheist who thinks the likelihood of the existence of the gods supported by major religions is close to zero, but no truly rational person would say there is a 0% chance that any of them are true, it's just so close to zero that it may as well be. But to deny the possibility -- no matter how remote -- is to be as fundamentalist as those who insist that it's true.

So, I call myself an atheist because I don't like the wishy-washiness that calling yourself agnostic brands you with. I used to call myself agnostic because people were less hateful to the term. I know many people of that mindset personally, who are agnostic atheists and call themselves agnostic rather than atheist simply to avoid confrontation.

@Mago, thank you for the polite, constructive response. My point to Doyle was to point out that -- while he's obvious a "real man" with emotions -- he should have taken a moment to write a response that would have been more insightful and intelligent, and thus more scathing. Like I said, I've met him multiple times, and he's a great guy, but in this post he let his emotions get the better of him against a person who was obviously in the wrong -- and he took the easy way out with mudslinging, which proportionately doesn't earn him any points in his argument. If he'd taken the high road and been respectfully, intelligently scathing, LTSC would have been left without a leg to stand on. I just want Doyle to think that way in the future. Ad hominem attacks are worthless except to convince an intellectually shallow constituency.

@Texasroadgambler, looollll. "I don't believe there are many true atheists, with the exception of sociopaths and psychopaths." Interestingly, I feel the same way about religious people, so that doesn't prove either of our points. I don't think someone can read the entire Bible cover to cover, reading and understanding every word of it and still come out believing. There are simply too many horrible acts (by God and his followers), too many inconsistencies, and too much left unexplained or ambiguous for this truly to be the inspired word of an omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving, perfectly just god.

I think it is profoundly ignorant to go through life believing in something untestable, without evidence, simply because your community and some man-made book tells you to. Why not believe in Islam? Or Hinduism? What convinces you that those are wrong and yours is right? Other religions have holy books inspired by God, too, you know. Simply because you happen to have been born of a Christian family, you're sure your book is right. That, sir, is the overreaction.

"Think about how empty life would be without recognizing the spirituallity that surrounds us all." Interestingly, as an atheist, I realize the joy and beauty of life literally every day. I realize that if I were hit by a bus tomorrow, I'm just done. The end. Given that, I live my life to the fullest every day. I strive to be happy and make other people happy, and to live every day however I need to to ensure that both of those things are achieved. And looking at the world around me and all of the complexity of it astounds me. I love learning about the science that makes the world work the way it does, and knowing that no matter how much knowledge I attain, there's still more to find out.

To this last point, it seems to me that Christians are the opposite -- they don't like not knowing something, so they fill that void with God. I fill it with a thirst for knowledge. To each his own, I guess.

JohnnyOnTheSpot: I myself am an agnostic atheist...

---------------------------

Well, we all need to be something. Personally, I'm a Cristo-Jewslim. Mosque on Friday, synagogue on Saturday and church on Sunday. Keeps me busy but I think I've got all the bases covered. There's no base in atheism or I'd be that, too.

Doyle, I retrack my Ill informed redneck comment as you have redeemed yourself in my eyes. You had me going there for a minute but I should have realized you were feigning weekness in order to get us all in against the nuts. Speaking of the Nuts I don't thinks it's an effective interogation technique unless you connect the third appendage to ground. I am an athiest and hope for all your sakes that I'm wrong, because if you're right then I'll get one last chance to repent, I think that's how it works, don't know , never set foot in a church other than weddings and funerals niether of which I agree with. I've had two marriages and will only have one funeral hopefully. As for the haters out there, I equate them with the guys who get into drunken brawls at football games, they have nothing in their lives worth doing or caring about so they funnel all that frustration into a sporting event and ragging on people who've actually achieved something. See you in Vegas around the 28th, hope to shake your hand again.
Dan Chapman

JohnnyOnTheSpot:

From my post that you respond to, how did you come to the conclusion that I am a fundamentalist that believes that the Bible is the literal word of God.

I certainly don't believe that. In case you didn't know it, the Bible is the creation of man in 325 CE at the Council of Nicea. They voted on which scrolls out of many would become the Christian Bible.

That's where the trouble started.

To believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, you have to believe in incest (Genesis), and that Jesus would abandon his teachings of love (Ethic of Reciprocity) to return to the earth and slay thousands of people. (Revelations)

None of this, and other books of the Bible, particulary of the Old Testatment, can silence what Jesus taught.

Science and religion (spirituality) are not mutually exclusive.

Many, if not most, of the founding fathers of this country were Deists. Essentially, Deists do not believe that God intervenes in man's affairs or is even watching.

From the way that you describe yourself, I think that you may be a Nontheist, not an atheist. (See Pascal's wager).

@JaxFull, I honestly lol'd, but the joke was ill-conceived, nevertheless.

Like I said, agnostic and atheist aren't mutually exclusive in any way, shape, or form. I can very easily not believe in God but also be open to the idea that a supreme being exists. That's agnostic atheism, and IMO it's the most reasonable form of atheism.

Being a Christo-Jewslim would likely mean you're supposed to kill yourself if you follow the teachings of all of your books. And Jews for Jesus dumbfound me to this day.

@TRG, first off, if you're a Christian who doesn't believe that The Bible is true, what are you basing your faith on? Word of mouth? (That's worse, frankly.) God talking to you personally? (What were you saying about sociopaths and psychopaths?) This question isn't hypothetical, though ... I'm actually curious.

And yes, I'm very aware of Pascal's Wager. It is logically flawed in a very big way. Here are some examples of why:

http://www.thadguy.com/explanations/response-to-pascals-wager/28/

Here's another:

The argument against Pascal's wager is as such:

1. If you believe in a single God, you will have to choose one out of infinite possible varieties.

2. If any percent of the possible gods will punish you eternally, then there are an infinite number of hypothetical gods who, if they exist, would punish you for eternity.

3. If there is only one god, then your chance of worshipping it, and not a nonexistent entity instead, is one out of infinity.

4. Therefore you will almost surely fail to pick up the correct "One True God".

5. So if a god does exist, the chance of you going to any variety of heaven is infinitesimal, regardless of whether you are religious or not.

Put yet another way:

1. If you believe in God and Ral does exist, you will be condemned to remain in hell forever; thus an infinite loss.

2. If you do not believe in God and Ral does exist, you will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven; thus an infinite gain.

3. If you believe in God and Ral does not exist, you will not be rewarded; thus a finite loss.

4. If you do not believe in God and Ral does not exist, you will not be rewarded, but you have lived your own life; thus a finite gain.

Also, you can argue semantics about what I should call myself, but I call myself an atheist -- I don't believe in any gods. I certainly believe in the possibility of entities that we as of yet know nothing about and that certainly could be supreme to us -- and you may call those gods -- but until I see proof, I see no reason to believe in them specifically, any more than I believe in fairies.

If you want to classify me as a non-theist, then sure ... I'll be that, too. Whatever you want to call me that means I don't believe in any gods, including yours.

JohnnyOnTheSpot:

And you have jumped to the conclusion that I take Pascal's side of the wager? I do not. Pascal essentialy took the position that a belief in God was a "freeroll", therefore the math dictates that you should take it.

The Non-theist takes the position that he acts morally without fear of retribution from a vengeful God (In this case we are speaking of a Christian God) or in hope of some reward in an afterlife for doing so. I try to do the same. And from your post, it suggests that you do likewise.

But you are mounting such a rigorous defense of your atheism, it suggests to me that you are one of the angry people I mentioned in my first post about this subject.

LeeTheStriker!

You really come off as a seem to know it all wana be, but in fact you prolly grind out on 5 cent 10 cent all day long on the interweb. Oh I will be at the Belagio In September as well, Hopefully Doyle and I can help you in any way = ) I am serious, if your man enough to admit who you are.

Also, Johnny, may I suggest that you do a bit of research on the etymology of the word "God"? This might cause you to reconsider a few things.

One more thing: Surely you don't believe that you were born with moral values such as you profess to have?

Here's another reference for you: "Oxytocin the Moral Molecule". Psychopaths and sociopaths produce very little of this molecule. This molecule produced by the human brain is the foundation of our capacity for morality.

So yes, most of us are born with the ability to produce oxytocin. But unfortunately we are also hard-wired for delusion. Thus the cultural influences that cause many people to produce a brain chemistry in response to various dogmas that inhibit the production of the "moral molecule".

Amen Doyle! If it's good for America I am for it! I hope to shake your hand at the WSOP this year!

Hi Doyle again,

I agree with you on "Let’s try to save ourselves".

American are so fat that if there was a shortage of gas half of americans would not adjust
and would die out like dinosaurs.

Let's save ourselves from Greed and Gluttony.

@TRG: "The Non-theist takes the position that he acts morally without fear of retribution from a vengeful God (In this case we are speaking of a Christian God) or in hope of some reward in an afterlife for doing so. I try to do the same. And from your post, it suggests that you do likewise." I take the former position, not the latter. You are correct that I act morally without the fear of a vengeful God. However, I have no preconceived notions of what happens after I die. The most-likely scenario -- based on Occam's Razor -- is that I die and that's it, I decompose, and that being most likely, I live with that in mind. That is, I live for the now, trying to make myself and others happy as much and as often as possible.

So it appears that we share the former, but not the latter. I'm not doing anything for a reward in the afterlife, I'm doing things for the reward it gives me in the here and now, happiness from seeing others happy and doing things that make me happy.

And you confuse "rigorous defense" for anger. I'm a passionate guy, you can ask anyone who knows me. If you also ask them if I'm an angry guy, they'll laugh at you. I'm very rarely angry, sad, or depressed. Nice try lumping me in with a stereotype, though ;)

And for what it's worth, probably 3/5 of my good friends also are atheists, and they too are exceedingly happy, incredibly nice people. This isn't to say that such a small sample size is representative of the whole of atheists, although I think it shows that depressed, angry people are depressed and angry regardless of their beliefs. I'm a happy, nice person, so it makes sense that I surround myself with the same.

Also, if I'm to understand you correctly (and I might not be), you're disproving that we are moral beings without God by pointing to the fact that there is biological evidence of morality built into us? So you're saying that we have morals that are instinctual (not learned from The Bible or Christianity)? Doesn't that go toward my point, then?

Morals make sense from an evolutionary standpoint. If you live in a tribe that is more moral than another tribe -- you care for others in your tribe and help other people -- your tribe is more likely to survive longer and procreate, promoting the brain chemistry that produced your moral proclivity. No God required ...

Johnny:

I'm pleased to learn that you are not one of the angry people that I defined in re atheism.

Hi LiveActionPro,

You really seem to come off as a very helpful man, man full of energy,
man of honor and integrity.

You offered some help for "LeeTheStriker".

If you could stop at my place of work - nursing home "Desert Lane Care Center"
and help me out lifting and transfering patients for a couple of days that would be wonderful.

My back is killing me from everyday lifting and people are kind of heavy.

Johnny:

No, I'm writing that the human brain is born with the ability to produce oxytocin, the moral molecule.

And your last point about "No God required" is correct to a certain extent, but misses the final genetic mark. Science has documented that certain environmental conditions, including culture, has led to genetic mutations that would ordinarily take eons, but in fact were altered in a few generations.

texasroadgambler:

No, I'm writing that the human brain is born with the ability to produce oxytocin, the moral molecule.

----------------------

I scanned the Wiki page on this molecule and it looks more like a high tech version of Spanish Fly than something that would enhance morals.

I dare say that texasroadgambler, JaxFull, and I are approaching a level of constructive discourse heretofore unseen in the CardPlayer.com comments section. Bravo, gentlemen.

Doyle,

I'm a fan of yours and I always look forward to reading your latest blog. I do agree that these anonymous posters, who routinely write mean-spirited, hateful things are reprehensible. I'm not sure mentioning them by name in a blog is the best idea, because they seem to get a lot of satisfaction from the attention they receive. Kind of like a lonely playground bully.

I'm at a loss why you are certain that Lee is an atheist, and why you used that term in the pejorative sense. Do you feel all atheist are hateful, pathetic cowards like Lee? I'm an atheist myself, and it is not because I'm a sociopath, or full of hatred, or had a terrible upbringing, I simply don't feel that there is any evidence of a supreme being that watches over us and instills a sense of right and wrong. I think a person can live a good life without believing in an omnipotent, invisible being, or embracing religious dogma. It's unfortunate that there is such a stigma about atheism, and people I admire like yourself lump us in the same group as the odious people I mentioned in the above paragraph.

I respect you and will still read your blog, but I wish people would realize that Atheism isn't a club: we come from diverse backgrounds, and circumstances, and I don't think it is fair to paint us in such broad strokes.

Scott Phipps

Anyone that insults doyle brunson, daniel negreanu, and stu ungar or as you call them, the hick, the weasel, and the crackhead obviously has no respect for the game and I'd have to wonder why they're even on cardplayer to begin with. I hope your just trying to get attention cause if not your a really sad dude that I'm sure has never achieved anything in poker. 34 years old?? that's amazing charga...amazing that you still haven't gone through puberty yet lol hmm well I guess maybe I'd be bitter too if I was in your shoes.

Chagra* or whatever your name is lol

+1,000 to Scott Phipps. I wish I said it as well as you did. Instead, I rambled ... Props, good sir.

Doyle,

I am a long time reader of this blog and many others, poker related and otherwise. Yours, however, has always been one of my favorites. I have never been moved to comment on any of them until now though. What has me so riled up is the comment "I almost guarantee he is an atheist." While JohnnyOntheSpot has already addressed this with astounding eloquence, I thought I should add my two cents as well. I, too, am okay with the statement being offensive. As an atheist, I get called horrible things almost daily either in person or in the media and am used to it. That's not what bothered me. What bothered me is that the implication you were trying to make that atheists are worse people that believers is not true. If anything, time and time again we find that atheists are more moral than Christians. Studies show that the more IRreligious a country is the LESS likely it is to have crime, murder, under age births, abortions, and STDs. Link: (www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP073984414.pdf). Let me repeat that. Countries that have more atheists, agnostics, and non-believers (all synonyms by the way) have fewer murders, abortions, under age births, and cases of STDs. As Johnny has pointed out, this result is not particularly surprising when you take into account the various heinously immoral positions of the major religions. It is also not surprising because of the kind of reasoning, or lack thereof, that religions routinely use: faith. It was famously said "Without God all is permissible," when in fact the opposite is true. Atheists must appeal to logic or reason to support their arguments. If I want to say something is moral or immoral I must make reason-based arguments and hope to convince my listener. Theists can simply say, "because god said so" or "I have faith that it is true," neither of which are moral positions. They simply relieve one of needing to defend their position rationally.

One final point. There is an important reason that I did not sign my full name. I really would have liked to. However, I work with others that could be adversely affected by my position as an atheist. Atheists have been shown to be the most hated minority in the US: http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/some-americans-reluctant-vote-mormon-72yearold-presidential-candidates.aspx . It is not uncommon to see people fired or otherwise being adversely effected financially because of their non-belief. I do not wish to have them lose money as a result of discrimination directed at me.

^^

I seriously couldn't be more proud of the CardPlayer.com community than I am right now.

@Texasroadgambler, I actually noticed that I missed responding directly to this question of yours: "Surely you don't believe that you were born with moral values such as you profess to have?"

For the record, phrasing the question that way obviously is intended to invoke a sense of embarrassment (akin to saying, "You CAN'T be serious ... you're such an idiot if you think so.") which is patronizing and doesn't help convince your foe of your argument so much as pat yourself on the back. I'm not really saying this to detract from you so much as to point it out for future reference. I'm trying to get such phrasing out of my own system in these kinds of debates, as it only serves to force your opponent to dig in rather than give up ground -- it helps no one. I probably resorted to the same tactic in comments above, which is unfortunate ...

Now, on to my answer: This is not a black and white issue. I don't have to say, "Yes, people are absolutely born with all moral values" or "No, we're born amoral and learn everything from scratch." I hate to use this term again, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. Certain aspects of our psychological makeup can indeed be instinctual, based on generations of evolutionary progress. Other things most definitely come from your cultural upbringing, your friends, your family, and so forth.

An example of something likely (but nor surely) instinctual: trying to catch someone when they fall, or seeing someone in pain and wanting to help. Such things clearly promote the survival of the species, so it makes sense for those genetic qualities of a persons psychological makeup to be selected for in natural selection. A tribe of animals that help each other survive are more likely to produce offspring with the same instincts.

An example of something that likely has come from environmental factors: outrage against rape. Obviously rape is wrong, but from an evolutionary standpoint, rape promotes reproduction. However, secular moral values dictate that rape is an incredibly evil act, and rapists are horrible people. I say secular values because rape is condoned in The Bible as not a big deal, and sometimes even approved of by God.

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

I did not get my anti-rape values from The Bible.

Interesting debate all I can add is "good thing there is a God because if not man would have invented one". More people have been killed throught history because of different religions and different gods. The idea of there being only one true god is inane,obtuse,ignorant,arrogent etc.... Or thinking man would not be moral without believing in a god is mideviel thinking.
Would the world be better if there were no people bombing abortion clinics.No one flying planes into buildings in the name of allah(promised to get virgins after their dead).Forcing the church of England on the Irish. Fighting over who the holy land belongs to not to holy given the number of deaths.
All of the afore mentioned done in the name of a god. Religion and the concept of god once elevated us now it destroys us.

I like the way you think Johnnyonthespot

Johnny, please stop. I love reading your arguments. You are very gifted in presenting your views. But please, God, as in the Christian God has never approved of rape. You will if you were to do a full read thru of the Gospels and then the epistles of Paul and the others will notice a very scathing and outright disdaine of religion. Religion in the name of some god might approve, but God will never approve. The Christian faith as expressed by Paul the Apostle is one of liberation and liberty. Religion in this world, according to Paul, enslaves and binds people in chains. When it is mentioned of religion in the New Testament, it is refered to as taking care of the widows and orphans. Christianity was never meant to be a
" new " religion to take over where the Jews went wrong. As a matter of fact, the faith of Christ is wrapped up in the knowing that God entered time and space thru a miraculous happening called thh virgin birth, some call it the immaculate conception. He then brought forth his WORD in the flesh form of a man. That man then was killed by most accounts and by predictions in the Old Testament, on a cross. This blood letting then allowed for the redemption of man, and then access to God. When I mention the liberation of man, I am referring to the understanding that it is no longer our sins ( define sin ) that keeps us from God. As a matter of fact, there was concern in a letter Paul wrote to one of the Roman churches that he was advocating sinning was okay. People have a concept of Christianity that says, you can't do this or you can't do that. Well that is simpy not the case.
That is why I love sitting with folks and listening to their understanding of what they have heard and or think about Christianity. I love the atheist view point as from a purely logical and reasoning standpoint it makes sense. Christ will never make sense. The Christ I know, is to the learned, foolish.

Good discussions on atheism, etc. If God does not exist, then why curse him when the donk rivers his ace? No..Einstein had it right....behind all creation there is 'intelligent design'. However, the creator started the thing spinning, and let it go on to its ultimate conclusion.....which will be...collasping in on itself, and then back to another big bang.......How the fundamentalist can pray ...'in Jesus name, I speak against this tornado...and you will not harm this house'...or 'repeat this prayer and you are eternally saved' (never mind how you live the rest of your life).....or 'God...should I get a haircut today?'. No, the tornado will come and go due to meteorlogical factors, and you will get a haircut when you are ready, etc....

And...how the Moslems can do what they do in the name of their god...is so perverted and so sick, as to give all religi ons a black eye. Religious extremists from all religions (I said extemeists) are ruining the world......

Doyle- I'm a retired US Army officer, and I would like you to consider a different side of the torture issue. While it is emotionally satifying to think about torturing someone who has harmed our country, I believe (as do almost all military members) that it does great harm to our country when we do that. There are both practical and moral issues involved here. Practically, we almost never actually have the "ticking bomb" scenario where we have captured someone with knowledge of something happening within hours or days. That makes for great entertainment on shows like 24, but isn't real life. Even if we did, the greatest problem about torture is that the info you get is unreliable. Believe me Doyle, if you had your nuts tied to an electical charger, you would tell me anything to make it stop. That doesn't mean you would tell me the truth, it just means you will tell me whatever you think I want to hear to make it stop. Torture has been proven time and time again to be almost worthless in gathering actionable information that couldn't be gathered in other ways. The more important moral issue is that there are laws about the conduct of war. We are a nation of laws; what makes America different in the world is our belief in the rule of law and the way we treat people. My heart broke when the torture photos from Iraq came out. That is not what the country I and so many others served and fought for does. It brought us down to the level of the terrorists, and truly damaged our standing in the world. How can we win the war for the minds of populations when they see we treat our prisoners the same way the terrorists do? Some of our best intel has come from terrorists we did not torture, because they had been told by there leaders that we would, and when we didn't they realized they had been lied to. So Doyle, I know this is a long post, and only scratches the surface of the issue, but I would just like you to consider that what is ultimately for the good of the US is not the immediate gratification of torturing a bad guy. There are reasons that America is special; we need to keep it special, even during difficult times.

And Doyle, as a PS to me other post, I truly enjoy your blogs, your books, and watching you play on TV. You are a great ambassador and icon of the game. Best of luck in the WSOP!

Oh, God! Now we have a debate about religion.

Couldn't we debate the wisdom of playing JT UTG for a minbet? Even atheists can debate that one.

@Johnnyonthespot, @gangles, @danoman56, and @jaxfull you guys should check out atheistapologist.com this is just the type of debate it seems to be geared for

browser2920: Doyle- I'm a retired US Army officer...

------------------------------

Sir: thank you for your service to the nation. I'm happy to know you have retired. Please keep it that way.

Sorry, Mago, but I cannot leave a challenge unanswered. You refute one of my points but then insist that I don't reciprocate.

Anyway, as the link I gave points out (and yes, the link is obviously biased, but it gives citations), there are at least a few pretty solid indications that God condones rape from the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 20:10-14:

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

As the site said, what kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

Numbers 31:17-18:

"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

More murder and rape, again condoned by God (and yes, in context).

But if you don't take the Old Testament seriously and only get your values from the New Testament ... why? How can you justify that? In that case, aren't you picking and choosing the morals you like from The Bible? And wouldn't that indicate that religion has nothing to do with morals, but rather that morals are ever-evolving and secular rather than based on a book thousands of years old or instilled within us by a God thousands of years ago? (Why didn't he just instill the right values the first time?)

Mr. Brunson,

I would like to say one thing................right the phuck on! I haven't read any of the comments but I love what you had to say. TY Sir!

JohnnyOnTheSpot:

I didn't intend for my question to be patronizing. If we had been speaking face to face, I think that you would have gotten a different message. As an example, satirical comments on blogs can never contain the content, even though identical, that a visual encounter provides (SNL as an example of this)

Johnny, I think that anyone who follows the Ethic of Reciprocity, the core value of the world's major religions, is a spiritual person. This core value has been defined for millenia. Christians call it the Golden Rule. It is expressed differently in the Torah (in the negative i.e. "Do not unto others..." You do this, and to me that speaks of spirituality.

Jesus had a good take on the danger of dogma when he responded to one of his disciples who said, "You will know me by my faith."

Jesus replied, "You will know me by my deeds."

To the subject of scientific determination of whether or not their is a purpose to the universe, and not a great void, astronomists, cosmosmologists and others have been able to determine the continuing history of the 13 billion years after the "big bang" based largely on Einstein's Theory of Relativity.

However, they admit to the man that they cannot decipher the "singularity", the moment just before the "big bang".

What is to be learned by that? In my opinion it suggests that at least one thing, the origin of the cosmos, is unknowable. I think that is as it should be.

That leaves me to be able to ponder the mystery of some universal force that created it. And I am not writing about the anthropomorphic father figure that can be found on the ceiling of the Cistine Chappel. I know that it is a challenge for many people to think abstracly about not only this issue but others as well. Your posts inform me that you are not one of them.

Ciao

@oldeschoolpkrr Einstein did not believe in a Creator.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated." -Albert Einstein March 24th, 1954

"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."- Albert Einstein in a letter 1954-55.

No mysticism means no mystical answer or hypothesis, ie. no god or gods.

@mago What Bible are you reading?

"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house.... after (a month) thou shaft go in unto her, and be her husband" Deuteronomy 21:10-13 KJV

or

"And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Numbers 31:15, 17-18 KJV

These are of course just two of many such examples.

There are a lot of other problems with your response but I will address just one. Why must our sins have ever separated us God? Surely as an omnipotent, omniscient being he could have made it so that they did not. He could certainly have made no hell, yes?

The reason your god looks foolish is because he is. More Einstein:

"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a child-like one."- Albert Einstein

And God said... I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. ..And to every beast of the earth.. I have given every green herb for meat... " Genesis 1:29 30

LOL sorry Johnny took too long writing my post and didn't see yours. We chose the same verses. How funny...

@texasroadgambler The beginning of the universe is not necessarily unknowable. For an example of a theory as to the cause of the big bang that we may eventually be able to test watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Dear Cardplayer:

Please ban multisyllabic words, original thought, and cogent, full sentences. I have too many paper cuts from my dictionary. It is soooooo much easier reading chagra, bmpek, and their ilk (kind of like a sleeping pill in blog form).

Doyle, a man with your resources could simply track that douchebag LeeTheStrikerChagra's IP address and leave a surprise at hit house some time.

Doyle is smart and wise enough to know that the people who are hating on him are just jealous of his talent and what he has. He is a good ambassador for poker I think that he is down to earth, honest and speaks from the heart what he believes in. He loves poker as much as anyone, and has great longevity, as much as anyone that ever played perhaps.
Good luck Doyle on the rest of the series, and as was said several times on here, these guys are only mad at themselves. They look for people to try to spew hatred on for no other reason that that.

I pretty much lost respect for Doyle because of his Atheist comment.

Love Ya Doyle, you are right on, one of the best blog's ever! Hey get a bracelet this year, Live long and prosper!

wet balls, you just gotta love it!

stanman5....I did not say Eiestien believed in God...but he did believe in a creator. Look up his comments again...you will see what he had to say about intelligent design. He most certainly did not believe in a personal God...he believed that a 'force' i.e. 'creator' started the univeerse and then left it to wind its way to its ultimate conclusion...not interfering along the way like the religious nuts believe. I might tend to agree with that theory, as from my long time on theis earth has shown me...if a personal God does exist....he really doesn't interfere where he should, and he seems to show up at the wrong time (always late, more than early)... Has anyone seen the History Channel (might be discovery Channel) recent series called 'Ancient Astronauts'...based on mainly the book 'Chariot of the Gods', but updated and expanded. F A S C I N A T I N G!!!! Makes you actually think, which some religionists, I have found, refuse to do.....

Love Ya Doyle, but you're tilting here

Now everybody stop bickering and Let's pray to God
for Doyle Brunson
to live a long healthy life (at least 150)

so that he can contribute to the inception of more
donkeys, degenerates, college dropouts, divorces, banktrupcies, crime and so on
so that casinos and poker pros can sustain their prosperous life and thus create a better life for the next generation.

Let's punish, beat up, ridicule everybody who does not agree with him or with his followers.

@ DB's atheist comment- I didn't detect any negative spin with this given the context of the post, not sure why a lot of others did. But it provided a great vehicle for conversation, nice job everyone.

At Lee the Black Striker: You still didn't post your real name...maybe we'll read about in you September/October?

@JohnnyOnTheSpot: You said, "I think it is profoundly ignorant to go through life believing in something untestable, without evidence, simply because your community and some man-made book tells you to. Why not believe in Islam? Or Hinduism? What convinces you that those are wrong and yours is right?". Well said. 300 years ago nobody would have been able to conceive of much less test things like radio waves and other forms of naturally occurring energy yet they were and have been there just waiting for us to become enlightened enough to discover them. Just a point to ponder my friend.

@God: Thanks for beer, music, endorphins, MMA, my kids and poker. I love you man!!!

Sincerely,

Foster Cannon [my real name]

Lee you are a real piece of work, you know that? First you go at THE face of poker by going after Doyle, and then you make remarks insinuating there deaths??? Then, you try to back up all of your claims by citing your own "facts." By the way, everyone SHOULD look up that clip about Freddy Deeb supposedly going south. You will CLEARLY see that Johnny Chan started that whole argument, not Daniel Negreanu. Daniel did however have the balls to bring it up because he wanted to know, but it was clearly obvious he was not hateful towards Freddy even if he HAD gone south. Anyways, back to the main subject. You must have broken your arm as much as you were patting your own back with your "accomplishments." Ooooh la la, you are a business owner. So are millions of other people in this world. Wow, you have a couple of degrees. Well so do a lot of other people in the world too. Then you want to accuse Doyle of being racist? Seriously, how much anti-semitic and racist hatred have you unleashed on this site over time by using all of your blunt vocabulary on this site? Did you ever think maybe Doyle does not like Barack Obama because he, as well as MILLIONS of other Americans, do not agree with what he is doing??? Also, it sounds like you play a bit of poker yourself if you are a regular on this site and checking out the blogs. Do you ever think you follow this site and his blog so much because you are secretly an avid admirer of him and just do not want to admit it? Or, do you just strive to get your face in the controversial limelight. Personally, I think it is the latter of the two. It appears you just seem to have a Napoleon complex that is larger than Doyle's bankroll as well as a need to try to be the bad boy late in life because drama gets attention before subtlety, hence your Lee Chagra dedication nickname. Well congratulations Lee, you have just received your 15 minutes of fame. Enjoy it and the many more years of trying to prove yourself to the world before you ultimately erupt on your own self because the world will not make an ivory tower large enough for you to use as a first place pedestal. However, in the meantime, I suggest you get YOUR "facts" straight.

"you gotta knoooooow when to hoold em'... know when to fooooold em'.. know wheeeeen to waaaaallk awayy, know when to run."

betcha u be hummin this in ur head for the rest of the day! :)

LeeTheStrikerChagra: These are the facts. Negraneau accused another player, one with a stellar reputation, of improper etiquette, and unsavory cash game behavior, based on what he saw??????

-------------------------

Based on my viewing of the video your claim is totally overstated. Negreanu didn't accuse anyone of anything. As he said, it was just joking -- something that goes on at poker tables all the time.

The excessively sensitive Deeb went ballistic over it.

Leetheblackstriker

You are indeed laughable! You are such a hoot! Why Doyle Brunson wasted his time addressing you I will never know..

You are a typical liberal...anyone that diagrees with you is either 1 of these 3 names;

1.bigot
2.racist
3.homophobe

The REAL defination of a racist homophobe bigot in 2010????

Someone who wins an arguement with a liberal....

I hope Doyle kicks your ignormant black *ss all over Las Vegas Blvd. You are truely a scum sucking worm.

Doyle must i say you are the man!

Lee the accusation happened during the show and the review happened after the accusation and since then have you witnessed every negreanu and deeb encounter? I doubt it and as fad as ruining people lies and associating with felons, you certainly are the epitome of the pot calling the kettle black with, as I said before, you dedication/nickname of a handle on here. Start reading slower and reinvestigating your own sense of values because you appear to be just another hypocrit

Yawn.

Wow. I'm never going to read the blog comments again. Some of you people are just sick. Get lives.

Non-fictious eh? you obviously did not receive an English degree... but to say that your name is completely different than association with known felons is somewhat true. However, you do seem to have a CONSTANT need to feel like the cool guy. Therefore, Lee The Black Striker Chagra sounded like a cool name and you latched onto it. Therefore, since doing that, you can't deny the irony of the fact that you are judging a predominant figure of the poker community for his own prior actions and associations when you, someone who appears to have some interest in the game of poker, want to bash on his opinions, and wish ill will on him personally for what before was no reason that I could conclude, and at the same time have this name to create your own anonymity that, once again, is created by the name of A KNOWN FELON. It is easy to judge someone like Doyle because his life is out in the middle of the poker world for everyone to see and he was not afraid to release his own autobiography. However, who the hell are you? Nobody knows. And that is the different. So while you get on here touting your "degrees" & "business" and the fact that you pay your rent (by the way whoop dee doo), try taking a seat under the limelight with a giant record of the majority of what you did in life. Until then nobody knows a damn thing about you except that you are a bitter person that has a chip on your shoulder towards any "face" of modern poker. I guess you had a bad Vegas experience.

Wow !
Fireworks in a Blog...
Somewhat interesting.

How difficult is it, to be un-biased ?

LeetheChagra seems Very well Spoken.

But i'm pretty sure, even He will Admit:
What the Hell are We doing reading these Blogs anyways ?

I'm guessing Doyle has some experiences in His Life,
that would interest just about Anybody.

As far as Todd goes, He MUST be a pretty Decent Human Being.
Especially considering His LOVE for Animals.
Let alone His vast catalog of Awesome Music.

No sense going to WAR with 1 Another.

WE ALL have a Pathetic side.

Maybe We can try and Extract the Good out of Each Other.

Cause whether You Like or Dislike Doyle,
lets face it;
Incorporate ALL His Wisdom with Yours,
And You're a much much Wiser Man.

Combine ALL the Love He has,
with ALL the Love You have,
and Look-Out.

You be lovin every-1 !

Am pretty Sure He is a Good Father.
Must be a Decent Husband.
I mean,
STILL Married after ALL these Years.

And He too, constantly raving about a Genuine concern for Animals.
That all by itself, Seperates for Sure.

Hope this gets worked out for the best.

By the Way,
According to Common Sense, Logic, History and Facts.....
One of the Three Hardest Things to do, in Our Lives;
is to:
RETURN Love
for Hate

Whoa!

GOOD LUCK TO ALL

Lee it is you who has a lack of reading comprehension and visual comprehension. No where in Doyle's OP did he say Chagra was convicted of any crime or a known felon. Doyle said he was "head of the biggest drug cartel in Texas history" decidely different statement.
I also watched the clip of DN saw nothing that would make me think any less of him. He did not start the controversy he simply asked a question in a non accusing way.
You live in your own little world spewing nothing but hatred for others. Sladering others to make yourself feel like a man really pathetic. Most people find self worth from within others(like yourself) try to tear everyone else down. I guess that gives you a sense of self worth however false it may be.

Robert Doyle

LeeChagra:

Perhaps Doyle is better known worldwide as a "gifted pokerplayer", not a "glorified gambler" as you have written.

As far as who he has associated with over his long career as a poker player, you left out drug dealers, bank robbers,killers,mobsters, embezzelers, bank presidents, billionaires, and legislators just to mention a few of your omissions.

Professional poker players, particularly in Doyle's early years, played with whoever had the money. That was, after all, the purpose of playing for "your supper". Maybe you know it as "singing for your supper"?

I haven't seen you write anything critical about the superior online players of today who have an endless school of mullets to seine 24/7/365. Why is that? Aren't they using their superior abilities to support the same lifestyle that you criticize Doyle for?

AS far as your rant about Sailor Roberts goes, Sailor was one of the kindest people you could have met when he was alive. His association with Lee Chagra was as his bookmaker (uh oh!! illegal activity on both their parts). Lee also followed the money, as most lawyers do.

Bringing the truth about Doyle to the poker world one post at a time.

Yours truly,
TEXAS ROAD GAMBLER

LeeChagra:

No, and neither have you.

ratmfrelkins:

Lee was not a convicted felon, otherwise he would have lost his license to practice law, which he was still practicing at the time of his murder.

Perhaps you confused him with his notorious brothers, Jimmy or Joe.

Jimmy was the most notorious.

An honest mistake on your part, I'm sure.

TRG

Since TRD calls me Thade I'll comment on this string,

Have you all lost your mind??? It's one thing to throw it around with each other and it's completly another thing to insult Doyle. WTF is wrong with people like Lee C? Lee have you no idea how simple it would be to look up your IP and trace everything you say back to you and post your real identity, address etc.... Are you that naive to believe that you are really anonymous? Child's play to just about any geek that cares to know so rest assured that if you keep it up you'll be surprised to know that you are not anonymous you moron. I'd really love to see the look on your face when you verify what I am telling you here. LOL

As far as limits go, leave Doyle alone, it's like insulting Babe Ruth or Elvis, you just don't do it. It's a true gift to get comments and insight from him and if he gets pissed off he'll pack it in which would a real loss to everyone so wise the F up.

I think you guys missed the part where Doyle said that he has previously set this guy up and he had fallen for some of this comments...this time he set all of you up. Nice trap Doyle.

fastmonkey, aka Thade:

Who would have ever thought that we would agree completely?

I thank God we have these blogs because if some of you were not addicted to spewing on your computers all day, I truly believe your psychopathy would lead you to realize your inner serial killer or rapist.
Doyle is doing society a great favor by keeping you fruitcake, nut-jobs harmlessly occupied.

Doyle, I find it interesting that you disparage someone for being an atheist instead of a Christian, and then threaten to beat him up in a dark alley! You then go on to promote torture in defense of your country (testicular electrocution no less!). As a Christian, aren't you supposed to ask "what would Jesus do?" Didn't Jesus command that you should turn the other cheek, bless those that curse you, and love your enemies? You come across as extremely hypocritical with these views. But this is nothing new for Christianity. Many Christians say their religion is all about peace, but as soon as they feel threatened they immediately throw the Bible's teachings out the window and say "let's go to war!" See the Iraq war for a case in point. I'm sure Jesus would have gotten in his tank and led the charge.

If you are going to call yourself a Christian, please at least think carefully about what your are supposed to believe before you open your mouth.

coldharbor: Many Christians say their religion is all about peace, but as soon as they feel threatened they immediately throw the Bible's teachings out the window and say "let's go to war!"

-------------------------------

When Christians fly airplanes into tall buildings and murder thousands of innocent humans, when they strap on explosives and walk into pizza parlors and blow themselves up, when they hate other religions so much that they behead their adherents and brag about it, when they treat women like farm animals -- that's when I'll despair at going to war with those who actually do these things.

FYI, Jesus wasn't opposed to defensive violence. After all he told his disciples to sell their garments and purchase swords at one point.

coldharbor:

Turning the other cheek is a teaching intented to inhibit the escalation of violence. It is not unique to Christianity.

If you think about it a moment, it could be an efective course of action in a microcosm, e.g.individual confrontations.

In macrocosms it has often been practiced as "passive resistance", i.e. Ghandi, which was also effective.

I don't intend this explanation as an endorsement of so many of the wars that have been fought in the name of Christianity. However, if you accept the "turn the other cheek" strategy as a literal course of action for major cultural confrontations, it leads to subjugation of the "cheek turner".

I think that the last war that was fought justifiably using Christianity as its banner in the last few centuries was WW II.

Jax:

I'll help you with this one. Jesus also violently drove the money changers from the temple.

How about that? A small collaboration between two opponents. Maybe that is what the teachings of Jesus was seeking to accomplish?

Jax:

"are" seeking to accomplish.

LOL at M8L!! "just sayin"

@texasroadgambler

You make a good point.

Collaboratin' regards!

Where'd my post go?

Ok, it's back. Strange things goin' on here today.

Jesus teaches "turn the other cheek, bless those that curse you, love your enemies."

Jesus teaches "sell your garments and buy swords, use defensive violence, drive the money changers from the temple."

So which is it? Sounds like selective hypocrisy to me since these statements contradict each other. If both are acceptable, why bother saying either one? Since Jesus didn't clarify when you should do one rather than the other and it's up to us to interpret which one to do at what time, these sayings are rather meaningless. Would Jesus condone torture or not? Oh, yeah, I guess he would since he apparently plans to torture anyone who doesn't believe in him for eternity.

The messages/chat here has been very interesting reading. I have played poker with Doyle in the past, and very much respect his cash game. That said: I would have to agree with LeeTheStrikerChagra that Doyle's comments about atheists are extremely prejudiced, but to label him as prejudiced in other areas is not supported based on the evidence.

That also said...I think Lee is an ass and wrong on many levels.

Lee wrote:

Brian 'Sailor' Roberts, a "degenerate junkie"-
wow......so is your point that if a individual has done bad things in their life it invalidates all other things that have happened in their life??? If Sailor did drugs late in his life, does that make him a bad friend for all the prior period??? You Lee are demonstrating prejudice

Lee wrote:...We know deep down, your major beef with Obama is his name, skin color, and short afro hair. Thats a fact.....

WOW...how stupid is a person who states for a certainity what other think "deep down"..... might you agree that you may be wrong about how Doyle feels "deep down" on this??? Might he disagree with Obama on policies???

Doyle Brunson is very bigoted. This time its atheists, non believers. Its been people with dark skin. People born in other countries. Muslims. Would it be presumptious to think he probably doesnt think highly of Jewish people? I dont think so.

So, if someone is wrong or makes a silly or dumb statement on one subject; does that say
everything they say is wrong??? No, but it does indicate that what they say on other topics needs to be evaluated closely based upon the merits of the point before agreeing.

Lee wrote- Despite his coddlers here and those who think he should be the 13th apostle, the truth is Doyle Brunson is nothing more than a sharp and shrewd professional gambler. WHICH IS FINE. But, should a man who has undoubtedly contributed to the destruction of more lives and families than you can dream of tell us what is good for America?? I dont think so.

so in your world do you discontine to listen to those whose decisions or lifestyle that you do not like??? Doyle has known people from a variety of backgrounds...so what??? take the opinions for what they are.

You Lee are showing great prejudice in yourcomments

The messages/chat here has been very interesting reading. I have played poker with Doyle in the past, and very much respect his cash game. That said: I would have to agree with LeeTheStrikerChagra that Doyle's comments about atheists are extremely prejudiced, but to label him as prejudiced in other areas is not supported based on the evidence.

That also said...I think Lee is an *ss and wrong on many levels.

Lee wrote:

Brian 'Sailor' Roberts, a "degenerate junkie"-
wow......so is your point that if a individual has done bad things in their life it invalidates all other things that have happened in their life??? If Sailor did drugs late in his life, does that make him a bad friend for all the prior period??? You Lee are demonstrating prejudice

Lee wrote:...We know deep down, your major beef with Obama is his name, skin color, and short afro hair. Thats a fact.....

WOW...how stupid is a person who states for a certainity what other think "deep down"..... might you agree that you may be wrong about how Doyle feels "deep down" on this??? Might he disagree with Obama on policies???

Doyle Brunson is very bigoted. This time its atheists, non believers. Its been people with dark skin. People born in other countries. Muslims. Would it be presumptious to think he probably doesnt think highly of Jewish people? I dont think so.

So, if someone is wrong or makes a silly or dumb statement on one subject; does that say
everything they say is wrong??? No, but it does indicate that what they say on other topics needs to be evaluated closely based upon the merits of the point before agreeing.

Lee wrote- Despite his coddlers here and those who think he should be the 13th apostle, the truth is Doyle Brunson is nothing more than a sharp and shrewd professional gambler. WHICH IS FINE. But, should a man who has undoubtedly contributed to the destruction of more lives and families than you can dream of tell us what is good for America?? I dont think so.

so in your world do you discontine to listen to those whose decisions or lifestyle that you do not like??? Doyle has known people from a variety of backgrounds...so what??? take the opinions for what they are.

You Lee are showing great prejudice in yourcomments

The messages/chat here has been very interesting reading. I have played poker with Doyle in the past, and very much respect his cash game. That said: I would have to agree with LeeTheStrikerChagra that Doyle's comments about atheists are extremely prejudiced, but to label him as prejudiced in other areas is not supported based on the evidence.

That also said...I think Lee is an ass and wrong on many levels.

Lee wrote:

Brian 'Sailor' Roberts, a "degenerate junkie"-
wow......so is your point that if a individual has done bad things in their life it invalidates all other things that have happened in their life??? If Sailor did drugs late in his life, does that make him a bad friend for all the prior period??? You Lee are demonstrating prejudice

Lee wrote:...We know deep down, your major beef with Obama is his name, skin color, and short afro hair. Thats a fact.....

WOW...how stupid is a person who states for a certainity what other think "deep down"..... might you agree that you may be wrong about how Doyle feels "deep down" on this??? Might he disagree with Obama on policies???

Doyle Brunson is very bigoted. This time its atheists, non believers. Its been people with dark skin. People born in other countries. Muslims. Would it be presumptious to think he probably doesnt think highly of Jewish people? I dont think so.

So, if someone is wrong or makes a silly or dumb statement on one subject; does that say
everything they say is wrong??? No, but it does indicate that what they say on other topics needs to be evaluated closely based upon the merits of the point before agreeing.

Lee wrote- Despite his coddlers here and those who think he should be the 13th apostle, the truth is Doyle Brunson is nothing more than a sharp and shrewd professional gambler. WHICH IS FINE. But, should a man who has undoubtedly contributed to the destruction of more lives and families than you can dream of tell us what is good for America?? I dont think so.

so in your world do you discontine to listen to those whose decisions or lifestyle that you do not like??? Doyle has known people from a variety of backgrounds...so what??? take the opinions for what they are.

You Lee are showing great prejudice in yourcomments

Dear Mr. Brunson

With all due respect you sound incredible tilted and there's nothing wrong with that it happens to everyone from time to time. That said I've never heard you sound this negative usually your blogs are incredibly inspirational and uplifting to me. Unfortunately I couldn't even finish reading this blog because I am afraid it will tilt me. You're the best poker player of all time for a reason and I look forward to your next blog.

Thanks,
Robert

To correct a common misconception. Someone above stated that religion has caused more wars and killed more people than any other cause. WRONG! Although I do not ever defend relgious extremists of any religion, the hostorical fact is that ...

1) WW2....more people were killed in this war than all the other wars in human history combined

2) WW2 was not about religion, unless you count the extermination of the Jews as a religious war... no WW2 was about land and revenge, and greed...all the usuals...but in no way shape or form was it fought to conquer 'in the name of god' or any other such nonsense. Maybe some of the people on the victorious side looked at it as a religious cause....but believe me...even atheists agnostics and voodoo followers wanted to fight hitler and tojo....

Doyle Brunson...Tut Tut. For a man of your age and experience how could you have written such a disgusting and hateful blog. I am a 21 yr old Non-American who "struggles to pay rent" and who is also an atheist. So I guess by your own admission I must be beneath you, as you stand up there on your pedestal totally removed from the real world. However, Before you label me in bad light you should also know that I do have a college degree in Psychology and European history, and I struggle to pay rent because of the lack of jobs in my country because of the downturn which hit my country horribly. Also I am not atheist because I am hateful, immoral or sociopathic, I am atheist because scientific theories and philosophical reading intrigues me and led me to what I believe is the only plausible answer to man-kinds qreatest question- Why are we here? And that answer is that there is no reason, just like there is no reason for the existence of donkeys or ants. Also I think you should know that many of the founders of your "great" nation were non-theists, like George Washington, James maddison, Abraham Lincoln. So how dare you present atheists in a bad light when your own support for torture dis-credits your actual belief as a christian. I will finish with a quote from my favorite writer "The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunk man is happier than a sober one" George Bernard Shaw- Fellow Irishman.

Hobilar1: Also I think you should know that many of the founders of your "great" nation were non-theists, like George Washington, James maddison, Abraham Lincoln.

-------------------------

Bunkola. George Washington was a freemason which required an affirmation of belief in God.

"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible."
--George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796.

"To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatic"

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than thsoe which spring from any other cause"
George Washington

Washington's was a born again christian, well at least he let reason and logic dictate his path during his younger years.

@Hobilar1

"By his second inaugural, however, Lincoln's biblical references -- two from the Old Testament and two from the New Testament -- occur in the central paragraph, not as decoration but as the speech's integral foundation. In quoting "Let us judge not, that we be not judged," Lincoln uses Jesus' words from the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:5) as the pivot that turns his address in the direction of reconciliation: "With malice toward none, with charity for all."

"Lincoln's employment of the Bible was controversial in his day for many of the same reasons the employment of the Bible in public speech can be contentious in ours. After the second inaugural, Lincoln was accused of crossing the line between church and state. The New York World indicted Lincoln for "abandoning all pretense of statesmanship" by taking 'refuge in piety.'"

--David W. Blight's review of the book "A. Lincoln: A Biography" by Ronald C. White, Jr. published in the Washington Post 02-08-09

Your "non-theists" don't seem to be as "non" as you may have thought. (Nor was Lincoln a "founder," for that matter.)

@Hobilar1

Oops, my citation was wrong. The quote is from an essay written by Ronald C. White, Jr., the author of the book.

Lincoln's religious beliefs can be argued till next month, however, even in my small understanding of American history it is understood that he was at least an agnostic in his early years an turned to religion later in life. I also left out one of the main founders, Thomas Jefferson, who despised religion in all its disgusting, indoctrinating entirety.

All this is beside the point. The point is that Doyle Brunson posted a very crude, discriminating blog in which he he outlined his obviously judgemental attitude towards atheists. I believe that all religious beliefs and the lack of any are not infallible and should rightly be scrutinised, but labeling all atheists the way he did was wrong . I dont care if he doesn't agree with the atheistic outlook, but if he is going to insult it he should at least give a reason why and I hope he does in his next blog. And as for his comment about torture being permissable if an American life is at risk, just LOL. He is basically saying that any other innocent life is not as important as an Americans. Deplorable comment in my opinion and neeeds to be explained and apologised for. This is the reason why America is considered as the most hated country in the world, because such a backward way of thinking is not relatable to any other western nation. All I can say is that Im glad that I live in a society that has relatively left religion behind and has banned disgusting inhumane acts like torture and the death penalty. No court in any land is perfect and mistakes are made, and innocent people do get the guilty verdict sometimes, and for that reason I cannot condone it.

Hobilar1: I also left out one of the main founders, Thomas Jefferson, who despised religion in all its disgusting, indoctrinating entirety.

-----------------------

Your claim is severely overstated...

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Benjamin Rush (12 April 1803)

Hobilar1: I dont care if he doesn't agree with the atheistic outlook, but if he is going to insult it he should at least give a reason why and I hope he does in his next blog. And as for his comment about torture being permissable if an American life is at risk, just LOL. He is basically saying that any other innocent life is not as important as an Americans.

---------------------------

Atheists invariably try to attach themselves to those who have accomplished a great deal for humankind by claiming those noble benefactors were also atheists or agnostics or "non-theists" or Jedi warriors or some such. But in actuality, the opposite is true. Almost all things beneficial to the human race were provided by believers while at the same time atheists like Castro, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were carrying out their murders.

You are reading far too much into Doyle's view of torture. Although he wrote "American" I'm sure he would adhere to the same policy if British or French or Polish lives were at stake. If I had caught one of the London tube bombers the day before the event and I suspected for a minute it was coming, I'd torture the hell out of him to prevent the tragedy.

I'm betting Doyle would, too.

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
Thomas Jefferson

Jaxfull: "Almost all things beneficial to the human race were provided by believers while at the same time atheists like Castro, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were carrying out their murders."

Please tell me your joking! If you had studied history you would have seen that christianity has been one of the most destructive forces man-kind has ever faced. From preventing independant taught (Galileo), to selfish greed in their sale of indulgences by which they sold access to heaven for a price. The sales of indulgences then led to Martin Luther setting up the Protestant religion (he was later executed on th popes authority). I grew up in a country which has seen this same battle rage for 90 years (protestants & Catholics) and is still raging in the streets causing the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Don't get me started on the 1st crusade in which the population of Jerusalem was massacred as the western knights shouted "God wills it". Hypocrisy has been to the fore-front of Christianity since its onset, and even recently when Priests in my country and around the world robbed the innocence of so many children and refused to take responsibility for it. And even with the aids epidemic that is tearing Africa apart, the Catholic heirarchy still forbid the use of contraception.

Castro, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao also had excessive facial hair, but that didnt make them do the things they did. It wasn't Atheism either, they were all just power-hungry, paranoid monsters and extreme atheists who wanted to rid the world of religion. Dont get me wrong I know religion has done good things too, but I find it insulting as a humane being to belief that good religious people only done the things they done because of a hope that their soul will find eternal happiness. I like to belief that everybody is capable of good, whether you believe in buddha, Jesus, Thor or have no belief at all and refuse to let imaginary celestials take the applaud for the work of genuinely good, kind humane beings.

P.S Sorry for rambling...:)

Should have been " Not* extreme atheists who wanted to rid the world of religion". My bad..:P

Hobilar1: Please tell me your joking! If you had studied history you would have seen that christianity has been one of the most destructive forces man-kind has ever faced.

---------------------------

I didn't say Christianity. I said most human advancement has come through the efforts of believers.

They might have been believers but the advancement did not come as a direct consequence of their belief system. Advancement comes through scientific knowledge and logical solutions, something which all religions have been trying to prevent because it contradicts their doctrine, e.g Evolutionist theories. All I am trying to put forward is that man-kind's future is in our own hands and not at the mercy of some devine, omnipotent puppetmaster. Oh and religious teachings that God is omnipotent leads to a paradoxical question- Can God create a stone that is too heavy for even him to lift? Gods omnipotency debunked within one question.

Hobilar1: They might have been believers but the advancement did not come as a direct consequence of their belief system.

-------------------------------

Slavery has been largely abolished in the world thanks to the early efforts of William Wilberforce. Want to guess what motivated him?

Hobilar1: All I am trying to put forward is that man-kind's future is in our own hands and not at the mercy of some devine, omnipotent puppetmaster.

---------------------------------

That's the problem. Under atheism there is no future. When you die it's forever.

(If God were a puppet master we wouldn't be having this discussion.)

Look at that sentence again. Man-kinds future as a species, not every individual person. And every individual person does have a future, It may last 1 year, or it may last 90 years. Its what you do with your one and only life thats important, and forgive me if Im not going to waste it by preparing for my inevitable demise on the hope that there is an afterlife.

@Hobilar1

Since we're debating on a poker site I must presume there's some gamble in you.

If we both believe the way you prefer then at some future time we go to the grave forever.

If we continue to believe what we individually believe, you go to the grave but I'll have a chance. My cards may be weak and the luck of the draw may not be favorable but the pot odds are so astronomical that I'd be a 24-carat, solid gold donk if I didn't take the chance. I'm all in.

Besides what have I lost if I'm wrong and you're right? Nothing.

Yah your right, the odds are in your favour. the only thing you will lose is the chance to have an outlook on life and appreciate how unbelievably special we are. We are at the pinacle of a process that took over 13 billion years to get this far, and when you realise that and come close to understanding the sheer magnitude of what we are, and all the smaller elements of life which makes us what we are I promise you, you will not want to waste a single drop of your life on praying to something which you have been told to pray to since you were young because you were blackmailed into doing it for fear of eternal pain at the hands of a giant demon. You will know how special every day is. And If there is a God, by whatever tiny chance there is, and he does decide to punish me for the sole reason that I did not spend my life worshipping him and saying rosaries, but instead I spent it acknowledging his work and living my short time on his creation to the maximum, then fuck him I dont wanna go to heaven for it seems like Ill have great company in hell.

@Hobilar1

I wonder what Bible quote Abraham Lincoln would be reaching for right about now?

Well to be honest, Id like to believe that he would reach for John 8:32- "The truth shall make you free".

@Hobilar1

As atheists go, you're an ok sort. You quote the words of the Man Himself, Jesus.

NOTE: User LeeTheStrikerChagra -- and all corresponding posts -- was deleted at that user’s request.

Have any of u ever considered that lee chagra is alive and well and posting. His so called murder was very guarded and convienent. I think he is alive and well and sitting back laughing playing games. I have a recent pic taken by someone who was in a class where he was quest speaker but not forth right about his real name. Think about it hard. May not be an imposter from my opinion of the picture. Wats anyones thoughts on this