WSOP -- Day 1B of the Main Event

When the horse event came up short you blamed it on the fact that ESPN was not going to Televise it. Then when day one was short you said it was because people dont want to wait three days to play in day two. Now day two is short and your putting the blame on the 4th of July. The real reason is the same people that are sending the majority of the players(online sites) is the same reason the numbers are falling. Online poker is a joke nobody lays down hands and peole are just plain rude not to mention the questionable card integrity. Look at the hands people are turning over it is disgusting and it is gambling and luck. Skill is a thing of the past in poker. Dont get me wrong there are many great players and very good people in poker, However the scum of society is running rampet in poker and killing it. I know this opinion is going to upset some people but I have been playing since 2003 and it is clearly obvious. Sorry for the harh words but Im tierd of sites and magizines twisting the truth.

I don't agree fully, but I would say that simply alot of the People/Fishes are gone, and so is the Number of Players declining.
I think the Skill overall has greatly increased however.
But yeah,Ive heard many topplayers-highstakes LHE HU Players think too that in 2-3 years everything will be pretty much gone, and I think they are right.
2012 will prolly be a Maineven with 1500-2000 Entrants,maybe even less.

My 2cents

When the U.S. reinstates money transfers from online pokersites to players and vica-versa and companies like Pstars and Fulltilt can start "direct-buying" players into main event again, then you will see Jamie Gold numbers once more. Let's not forget that we are still knee-deep in a recession and $10k-$12k can make a lot of mortgage payments and buy a lot of groceries for somebody who has less than 10% chance of even cashing in the Main Event of the WSOP. There is a lot of truth in Mr. Honest's comments, but poker is still a game of skill for the skillful player and take it from someone who has played it for over 20 years in casinos and for 10 years online Mr. Honest, POKER IS HERE TO STAY!!!! NUFF SAID.

I don't think anybody cares about what the top players-highstakes LHE HU players. Poker has been around for years and it will continue on for many more years. Nobody is going to miss pro LHE HU Players and why would they would have any effect on how poker tournaments attendance turns out. It looks like poker is going to have a down year, but it doesn't mean it's going to go away anytime soon. Why would anybody even say that? Some people just over react like in this case. Poker gone in 2 years?? Anybody saying this is oblivious to what's going on in this world. 2008-09 has been tough on all businesses and people alike.

I think online poker is great. Players who talk trash about online poker is probably not a good player in the 1st place. When I improved my online game, my live games also improved. There will always be people who will try to bring down poker, but in the end...poker will survive even though it may never reach it's peak again.

Well Mr. Honest, here is my opinion and I hope it doesn't upset you. I believe most players who hold your opinion that online poker is a joke just can't cope with the fact that the average poker player is getting tougher to play against. Even if they don't have a clue what they are doing, they are still getting more aggressive which makes them tougher opponents. I think players either will adjust for this or complain and call it a joke. You decide which side of the tracks you want to be on. But there are definitely classless fools online who say things they would definitely not dare say to your face. I totally agree there.

I don't know if anybody has heard, but it turns out that we're in a recession. In fact, the economy is so bad that they're calling it the "Great Recession". Las Vegas has the highest foreclosure rate in the country, casino traffic is down hand over fist, unemployment is at its highest level in 26 years, credit card/loan defaults are near all time highs, etc. What does all of this mean? Entries are supposed to be down this year for the big buy in events. Nobody has any disposable income to risk.

Well maybe I got my Point wrong,

I dont mean that ALL of onlinepoker/poker is gone, but that it will drop considerably in #players and the winrates too, besides that LHE HU will be gone soon(but yeah,not many care bout that).
I don't believe the Recession is the Reason, the cause is that many People have lost lots of Money and arent coming back. Think back to 04 and 05 when Party was full of 30/60 50/100 Tables of fish and now
there are at best 2 running full of Regs 1-2fish.

Iam not from America, so maybe you are right, and once they legalize transfering Money again it will be the same, but I doubt it.
WPT Numbers have fallen too, and I am sure EPT will too, maybe not this year, but definately next one.

schusch is correct about the recession not being totally THE reason, but it is a major reason poker is on the decline. the fact of the matter is...people are getting better, no one has the discretionary income they use to, the amount of tournaments have saturated the market (this is huge), and people have realized that this game is terribly terribly hard at making a living (ie, they lost all their "gambling" money). there are so many variables in this game that makes it very difficult to consistently win. and thats the honest truth. ive been around poker a long time and if you look at the numbers from the past 3-4 yrs to now...ALMOST every tournament have been declining in entrants. Poker is a living breathing thing and will never go away but it will encounter swings. 03 and beyond was just a HUGE upswing. It has always been climbing in popularity. right now its not growing as fast as before.

ever where else in the world, poker is growing much like it did post 03 in america. just take a look at the numbers at all the european or asian or latin american tournaments, they're up and up, and those countries are facing recessions as well...i wouldnt go as far as saying the recession is totally to blame. and in a few years or so, maybe more, maybe less, poker will decline once more in those parts of the world. its the nature of the beast, not just for poker, but for many things...

This is one of the more intelligent conversations I've seen about poker in a long time. I think one thing to keep in mind is the "looking for a quick and easy way out" attitude that most 17-21 year olds developed in the early 2000s as the economy was being driven by greedy adults and poker was all over the media. I mean, can you blame them, who wants to go to grad school for 7 years and only make $80K a year when you can win 2 mil on ESPN. Consequently, a lot of very intelligent "kids" opted for the poker lifestyle and many became very successful. A good percentage are well spoken and take a very analytical approach to the game...making it more appealing for other intelligent young people who listen to them talk and see their success to follow them. Anyone who has gambled for an extended period of time know it is very hard work in the end, and doesn't lend itself to a stable lifestyle, but that point is hard to impress upon a 20 year old...for good reason. So, if a few million people are willing to put $50 into their poker account every few months that will keep the poker economy alive for a long time to come. That's what online poker has done for the game...it gives sustainability through accessibility and Obama-like fund raising. I agree with all that people have said regarding the rudeness exhibited online, but that is true for many aspects of internet-driven commerce. Until your face is associated with online poker playing this will continue as anonymity always spurs cowards and amoral people to act rudely.

My 2 cents

Here's my take on the future of poker.

There are 2 reasons that the world of poker is down right now.

1) The Recession: this can't be ignored. Most businesses are down worldwide. The combination of increasing unemployment, flat wages and the decline in asset values are a potent force. Poker players are going to their local restaurants less frequently, so it's not surprising that they are wagering fewer dollars on their poker hobby.

2) Money Transfer Laws: this law and the enforcement stories that are played up often have a massive impact on poker sites.

Where will the World of Poker be 5 years from now? The future could be very bright. It's up to the players and operators.

Positive Scenario:
Let's assume that the economy recovers. That takes care of number one above. Second,the Democrats in power are more likely to tax and allow online poker, if the poker community fights for it.

I know many people doubt it, but I firmly believe that The World of Poker can grow much bigger than the previous peak. The reason is that millions of new players have been brought into the gamek at least for a while. And, the infrastructure is much more developed than during 03 - 05.

People need hobbies, interests and entertainment. Most of these cost a lot. A golfer that plays a lot at public courses spends $1k - $3k per year and at private courses $10k - $15k per year. Poker offers a complelling intellectual and competitive challenge. Just as David Stern took a dying NBA and made it a worldwide sport over 30 years, the Poker World needs to compete for the entertainment dollars by marketing poker to the masses. They have to fight for those entertainment dollars. If they do, 5 years from now there will be more poker players than ever.

Yeah..maybe.
Big Problem imo is that you can't market it.I mean honestly, except for rare occasions I never watch Poker on Television since its dead boring and I consider myself an advanced Player.I watch High Stakes Poker tho.
Now to reach alot of People you would need great broadcasts, but there is simply nothing like that in Poker..I mean compare it to superbowl or Wimbeldon Tennis or whatever, all of them are exiting to watch.

Anyone know if Golf is interesting?Never watched a Major or any broadcast.

Since there is no/nearly no TV, there are no Sponsors, which could bring alot of Money to it+Reputation as a sport.

Poker is a great hobby for people that like to compete (mostly a male trait) and people that like games. A key attribute is that it is not physical, so old and young can compete together. Thus, bringing in new players and keeping existing players playing will grow the base of players.

TV is only one way to get people interested in poker. There are many others.

Poker organizers need to: 1) set up a measurement system to track the true "state of poker", 2) develop local programs to "dedemonize" the game for the average person, 3) track the effectiveness of various outreach and retention campaigns and adjust based on performance.

Also note: I think the online operators blew it when they let the money transfer ban pass the Congress. They didn't come up with enough behind the scenes money to stop it. Congressmen react to dollars. They didn't pay enough. This time they better step up to the plate and "lobby" Congress to the tune of $100 million. Then we'll get the ban overturned (neatly snuck into some agricultural bill at 2am).

Many great observations. Boss Coho has solid post. Let us remember the prehistoric days before no-limit became hot, say 10-25 years ago. Some casinos offered poker as a necessary evil in their desire for a "full-service" operation. Most casinos didnt want it as it will never make money like slots or table games. Games were raked $2 max (how quaint). Today $4 and $5 rakes for live games are the norm revenues must be justified for each department. Harrahs, the current WSOP owner closed their poker rooms in Las Vegas,Reno, and Lake Tahoe during the '90s. Trust me I worked in one of them. It is necessary to take $100 an hour off a table to keep it going. Thats business, but the longer run implications of large chunks of cash going to the house in recurrent tourney fees and liberal rakes ( once called snatch and grab ) are still to be determined.

Good point about the Poker Operators "killing the goose" by over-raking, etc. There needs to be an official well-regarded orgnization that sets Best Practices. In golf it is the USGA. In fact, besides setting suggested rake pricing it sure could start by creating an official Rules of Poker so that we don't have to inquire what each casino's or for that matter floorman's rules are. Each casino could just post "We enforce the Official Rules of Poker as set out by the XXXX." Books and online copies would be available.